A champion of all things regional Queensland, His Honour Judge Alexander “Sandy” Horneman-Wren SC was appointed as a Judge of the District Court in 2012, where he served until December 2024.
His Honour also held appointments in the Children’s Court, the Planning and Environment Court and as Deputy President of the Queensland Civil and Administrative Tribunal. He is known for his excellent humor, generosity of spirit and eloquence. He spoke with Georgia Athanasellis on the latest episode of The Callover.
Now, what attracted you to the law?
“Well, perhaps the realisation that I had absolutely no capacity to be an architect, which is what I had secretly wanted to do. I thought Rockhampton, where I grew up, had a magnificent street that runs along the river called Quay Street, which is filled with beautiful colonial buildings, the most magnificent of which is a customs centre with a dome and stairways that go around the outside. And I used to ride my bike down there and dream about being an architect. But I had to realise that even though I was quite good at technical drawing at school, I had no imagination at all and a complete incapacity to conceive anything, so I needed to look somewhere else. So I suppose I was in about grade 10 or 11 that I start to become attracted to the law.
“I had a love of language which was instilled in me by my wonderful mother, who was a speech and drama teacher and who had an encyclopedic knowledge of English literature.
“So there was that. There was also an emerging sort of interest, I guess, in social justice issues and in the institutions of government. I suppose, like so many, I did debating at school and quite enjoyed it. And so I think it was the attraction that sort of, of all those things coalescing that led me to think about going into the law.”
And was there a moment during that your early days as an articled clerk at Swanwick Murray Roche in Rockhampton that solidified your desire to pursue a career in the law?
“I suppose it was everything to do with the court room. You’d occasionally get the opportunity to go and instruct in trials. They were largely trials that you had nothing to do with in preparation, but someone had to warm the seat, which I found fascinating. I used to get to appear in the magistrates court.
“Just mentioned some things, but also I used to do these things called oral examinations of judgment debtors. So you had, and I said to a lot of the the firm’s debt collecting in the early days, it’s the first legal work you did. And so you’d get a judgment for a princely sum of probably $200 or something against someone.
“Then you serve a summons on them to have them brought to court so you could orally examine them about what assets they had and what their income was, and that sort of thing. And I loved doing it. There was a magistrate at the time, called Ted Loan, Edward Miller Loan, who I think most of my colleagues thought was fearsome. I thought he was terrific. So I had to do as much of that as I possibly could. So I was very much attracted to the courtroom. And I used to go down there whenever I’d done my other
tasks around about the Tardis office and the stamps office and file and court documents. I’d go to the court room and I’d watch, and I’ve never stopped, being intrigued by watching other people in the court room. You can learn a lot that way, even when you’re very old.”
That’s a fantastic experience. To be able to pop into the back of a courtroom in the middle of the day.
“It was. It was brilliant. It’s like going to the matinee.”
There’s no better theatre than the courtroom. What made you decide to leave Rocky and come to South-East Queensland?
“Well, despite the fact that I loved being an articled clerk, I was splendidly unsuccessful as a student in those days, there was a fair bit going on in my life. Some of it had been relatively traumatic. And I probably just didn’t apply myself. But I was also probably immature, and I probably played too much football and those sorts of things. So I’d actually failed at law school and had been excluded. So, I had to find a way back.
“My way back was to enrol in a business degree at what was then the Capricornia Institute of Advanced Education, now the University of Central Queensland. And I did a business degree majoring in economics and accounting. And then after that, I re-enrolled in in law school and came back down. So that’s what brought me to Brisbane to go back to law school full time.”
Well, you did find your way back, and in 1993, you would admit as a barrister, and you were later appointed as Senior Counsel in 2009. I understand that much of your practice was in industrial law. What interested you in that area of law?
“I sort of fell into it, I suppose, in the sense that the plan had been to go to the bar and there had been a boom of litigation in the late mid to late ’80s. But that was, of course, followed by, a recession, which was starting to take hold at or about the time that I was thinking about leaving, finishing law school and getting a job. And so a lot of the litigation sections of the big firms were actually laying people off, rather than having an abundance of work for young people to do.
“And so I answered that in the Courier Mail for a trade union, which used to be called Act as Equity, now some merged entity called the Media Entertainment Arts Alliance, and they were after an industrial officer.
“And it seemed to have some work associated with contract law and agency law and things like that. So I fell in to that.
“But it also introduced me to employment law and industrial law, and it happened to coincide with a number of sort of interesting spikes. The unions had been encouraged to get big or get out, and that led to a lot of mergers. Hence the Media, Entertainment Arts Alliance and the merger that was involved in Queensland actually ended up being quite hostile and ended up in the High Court.
“I wasn’t involved in that, but there were a number of other things that were going on. So I was appearing regularly in the Industrial Commission, getting lots of experience on my feet, running some cases for some members … when I went to the bar there was, I don’t think, really anyone, at the very baby end of the bar who was doing any industrial work. And so, cases started to find me that way. And then I became involved and as things tend to happen, solicitors tend to choose your specialties rather than you doing it.
“And the more and more of that work I did, the less sort of general commercial work I got sent.”
On 1 November 2012, you were sworn in as a judge of the District Court of Queensland. What were the most challenging aspects of that position?
“I suppose the most challenging aspect of going from the bar or the ranks of the solicitors’ profession to the bench is that you actually are now the one who has to resolve the dispute. And it’s very different to arguing.”
And so what was the most rewarding part of being a District Court judge?
“I suppose you don’t look at in terms of reward. I suppose I enjoyed very much the process of sentencing. When you could be empathetic to the interests of both the victim of the crime, but also in some circumstances, the circumstances of the offender which are often matters deserving of, of considerable empathy in a number of contexts.
“It might sound trite, but I guess, you know, being at the front end of doing justice according to law is probably ultimately what it is. And the other thing about it is there’s nothing more rewarding than running a judgment that you’re happy with, when you’ve got the time to, to write it in the way that you wish to write it. If you’re a bit of a law nerd, actually, when you get used to the fact that it is you has to resolve the problem, it’s actually almost like self-actualisation as a law nerd, because you actually get without any vested interest in the outcome.
“Without a client, without a solicitor who’s trying to maintain a commercial relationship with the client, you have no interest in it at all. You just want to do your best to get it right.”
Now, if we can move on to your love of the regions, which is well known in the profession, what is so wonderful about living and practising law in regional Queensland?
“Well, it’s always going to be close to my heart because it was what I was introduced to. And I did continue to see it throughout my career, particularly in the last 10 years or so when I’ve been regularly going to places like Toowoomba and Dalby, to sit on the District Court. And I think for staff is there’s more of a sense of profession in the sense that everyone within the profession knows one another and has to work together much more closely than one does in a capital city. I even found the way that people correspond with each other in the regions, is different. Less, shall I say, aggressive in the tone sometimes because of course, in the regions, the favour sought today is the favour returned next week.
“Quite often people have multiple matters between them at any one time. And so I think there is that just greater sense of, of being one profession and that come together more often.
“We’re not going to be here forever, and you’ve got to bring the next generation on. And that’s something that serves the whole of the community. And I think you get that sense in the regions.”
What can city-based practitioners learn from their regional counterparts in terms of, how those personal relationships impact the dynamics in a courtroom?
“Everyone in the room knows everyone else. But of course, it’s all conducted entirely appropriately, even though there is a level of familiarity. But in many respects, I think that it facilitates things, if nothing else the practitioners know the judge’s personality … and know the court load. But also, I think that it gives hopefully the practitioners, and particularly younger practitioners, the confidence to be able to approach the judges for feedback.
“I got no greater joy out of the job than having particularly young practitioners come up for a cup of coffee, a cup of tea, after what’s sometimes a hard day in court. They were always terribly receptive to feedback and some of them would even turn up with a notebook. But I think to be able to have that reassurance from the judge that things might not have gone too well, but, you know, don’t beat yourself up about it.
“I think hopefully that was reassuring to people. So as far as advice to those in the city, if you had such an experience, I would encourage you actually to seek out the judge’s associate and ask whether or not you could go and have a chat with the judge, and see if the judge has any advice and hopefully also to be reassured that you know, you haven’t trashed your career in that bad 10 minutes that you’ve just experienced.”
During your valedictory ceremony, you were variously described as calm, unfailingly polite, and as having a generosity of spirit. What advice would you give to young lawyers about the way they conduct themselves, particularly in moments of great stress?
“Well, we know those occasions can be terribly flattering. Unfailingly is probably, a little bit of overstatement. But look, the advice I would give is that it’s a very, very stressful, stressful profession. … I always had the view that there was absolutely no point in adding to the stress that was already in a place. So that should be diffused. And that really comes down to how you conduct yourself in court with your opponents, trying to be as co-operative as you possibly can, and try to get to the nub of the issue because ultimately that’s really what the judge wants you to do.
“They don’t want you having spats about matters which are really not at the heart of the case. But always be mindful of your conduct and be respectful to the court, the process, the parties and your opponents.”
Which is what is one piece of advice you would give to your younger self as he commenced his legal career?
“Well, given what I’ve told you about my, less than stunning success as a student, as an articled clerk, probably study harder. Wouldn’t be the first piece of advice, but beyond that, I think I’d probably say don’t be too hard on yourself. I think that we can all be a little bit too hard on ourselves sometimes. And, I think that, probably I have been, and I’d give that advice to myself now.”
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